Minutes:
The Chair opened the meeting and welcomed those in attendance.
The Licence Holder was in attendance, who confirmed receipt of the paperwork.
The Licensing and Enforcement Officer presented the report to the Sub Committee.
The Licence Holder had held a combined Hackney Carriage / Private Hire Vehicle Driver’s Licence with the Council since 11th October 2024. A copy of the licence was attached at Appendix 1.
On 16th December 2024, the Licensing Team were informed by the Licence Holder’s Private Hire Operator (the ‘Operator’) that they had received a complaint alleging the Licence Holder had carried out an inappropriate conversation, of a sexual nature, with a lone passenger.
The original complaint was made to the Operator via a telephone call from an individual who identified themselves as the partner of the passenger. A copy of the complaint was attached at Appendix 2. An audio recording of the complaint was sent to the Licensing Team. The Sub Committee listened to this audio recording.
On 16th December 2024, the Operator provided a copy of the CCTV footage from the vehicle. The Environmental Health Team Manager noted the full CCTV footage should be viewed by the Sub Committee to provide context (only footage of the event was initially provided).
The Sub Committee was adjourned at 10:15 hours while this footage was located.
The Sub Committee readjourned at 10:19 hours and the full CCTV footage was viewed.
On 17th December 2024, the Licence Holder was interviewed by the Council’s Licensing and Enforcement Officers. The Licence Holder had been given the opportunity to explain their actions. The Licence Holder stated they had not flirted but had asked a question. They had also apologised and stated there had been no ulterior motive. A copy of this meeting’s notes was attached at Appendix 3.
On 18th December 2024, the Licensing Team made contact with the passenger for their account of the incident. The passenger explained that they were having what they considered to be a normal conversation, but the Licence Holder had suddenly changed the subject and asked what the best way was to compliment a woman. The conversation then took another turn when the Licence Holder had started talking inappropriately about sexual references which were considered normal where they were from.
While still on the journey, the passenger had quickly messaged their partner to tell them what was happening. The partner had then called to provide the pretence that they were waiting at home for the passenger – the passenger was travelling home alone, and they did not want the Licence Holder to be aware of this.
The passenger explained that as they were alone, they had felt ‘really uncomfortable’ and ‘very worried about what might happen’, because if the Licence Holder had decided to try and do anything, the passenger would not have been able to get the Licence Holder off them.
The passenger confirmed she had notified the police and had a Crime Reference number. The passenger was currently awaiting a visit from the police.
On 19th December 2024, the Licensing Team had contacted the Derbyshire Constabulary to obtain an update in relation to the submitted police incident report. At the time of the writing of the report, the police had been unable to confirm any details of the incident.
A Freedom of Information request had been submitted to the police for any records held; no records were held on the Licence Holder by the police.
With no questions for the Licensing and Enforcement Officer from the Sub Committee, the Legal Team Manager and the Licence Holder, the Chair invited the Licence to address the Sub Committee.
The Licence Holder stated from the CCTV footage, there was nothing negative from the conversation and had only been attempting to explain their experience from their home country.
The discussion on Leeds’ nightlife was present as this had been where the Licence Holder wanted to live. However, due to circumstance they were currently residing in Mansfield.
The Licence Holder stated not once, during the conversation, did they look back at the passenger or slow the vehicle down.
The Licence Holder acknowledged the topic of conversation was not appropriate, but nor had it been intentional.
The Licensing Officer asked if the Licence Holder had been contacted or interviewed by the police. The Licence Holder informed no, they had not been contacted.
The Environmental Health Team Manager asked if the Licence Holder believed the topic of conversation, being of a sexual nature, had been appropriate. The Licence Holder answered no, it was not. They had not been initiating any proposition of such a nature and from the initial outset, it had been a conversation only.
The Licence Holder continued that it was like this in their home country, and they had not intended to hold this conversation in advance. They also stated since the event, passengers would be taken from ‘A-B’ and conduct would be friendly only.
The Environmental Health Team Manager asked if the Licence Holder had learned anything. The Licence Holder answered they would keep their manner professional and that if passengers did not wish to speak, they would only treat such journeys as ‘A-B’ now.
A Member noted their only questions of the Licence Holder had already been asked by the Environmental Health Team Manager.
The Chair invited those in attendance to provide their closing statements.
The Licencing and Enforcement Officer referred the Sub Committee to sections 1.1 to 1.3 of Appendix B of the Policy, which outlined the general principles for assessing if a licence holder could be considered ‘Fit and Proper’. These were detailed in the report.
The Licence Holder stated they had not intentionally set out to discuss such a topic. Future journeys would only be treated as ‘A-B’.
The Sub Committee was adjourned, and the Licence Holder, Environmental Health Team Manager and Licensing and Enforcement Officer left the room for Members to deliberate.
The Sub Committee reconvened at 11:43 hours, and the Licence Holder, Environmental Health Team Manager and Licensing and Enforcement Officer returned to the meeting.
The Chair invited the Legal Team Manager to set out in summary the Sub Committee’s decision.
The Legal Team Manager stated the decision of the Licensing Sub Committee was: to REVOKE the combined Hackney Carriage and Private Hire Driver’s Licence WITH IMMEDIATE EFFECT.
The Sub Committee made findings of fact and gave the following reasons as follows:
1. In relation to the complaint received in December 2024, the Panel listened to the complaint made to the Licence Holder’s Operator and viewed the CCTV footage of the entire journey taken from inside the Licence Holder’s taxi.
2. The CCTV footage showed the Licence Holder conversing with a lone passenger. For the first (approximate) 6 minutes of the journey, the conversation was ‘small talk’ about Leeds and other areas in the UK, as well as holiday destinations and pricing. At just after 6 minutes of the journey, after a pause in the conversation, the Licence Holder asked, “what’s the nicest compliment to give to a lady?” – this part of the conversation went on for around 3.5 minutes and included discussions about online dating.
3. At approximately 9 minutes and 25 seconds into the journey, the Licence Holder said, “I was asking one lady what does stop mean”. The Licence Holder then continued talking about performing oral sex on a female, and stated, “where I am from stop doesn’t mean stop [laughs] stop means continue… if she says stop and she’s still there it’s more like she’s telling you, you be the one to initiate this not me, that’s the information she’s trying to pass to you”. The conversation continued with the Licence Holder talking about initiating sex. Shortly after this, the passenger interrupted and said they needed to take a phone call – they continued talking on the phone for the remainder of the journey.
4. The Panel noted that the telephone call taken by the passenger had been arranged via text with their partner as they;
i. Felt uncomfortable with the conversation;
ii. Did not want the Licence Holder to believe they was arriving to an empty home / alone; and,
iii. They were fearful the Licence Holder would try something and the passenger was alone and would not able to do anything.
It was noted the passenger had reported the matter to the Police after the journey had ended.
5. The Panel listened to the Licence Holder’s explanation that nothing was meant by the conversation – they believed it to be a normal topic of conversation. The Licence Holder stated that they were not trying to initiate anything with the passenger, but on reflection appreciated that in the UK it may not have been a conversation that should have happened.
6. The Panel were concerned with the conversation and language from the Licence Holder. The Panel accepted that the passenger felt fearful and worried about appearing alone and what could happen.
7. The Panel discussed at length the above concern, and the Licence Holder’s response to a question that in future they would ‘keep conversations professional’.
8. The Panel noted that the Licence Holder had been a licensed driver for a very short time and so had only recently completed all the requisite courses a driver needed, including safeguarding. The Panel considered whether re-doing any courses would improve the Licence Holder’s understanding of the appropriateness of their language / conversation, but they did not feel such courses would address their concerns.
9. The safety of the public was of paramount consideration. The Panel asked themselves whether they ‘would allow their daughter or son, granddaughter or grandson, spouse, mother or father, or any other person for whom they cared for or any vulnerable person they knew, to get into a vehicle with the Licence Holder alone’ – the Panel’s answer was ‘no’.
10. The Panel’s view was that no passenger should be made to feel fearful or worried for their safety when travelling in the back of a taxi. The Licence Holder’s language and topic of conversation was inappropriate and had caused a passenger concern for their safety.
11. The Panel’s decision was to revoke the Licence Holder’s combined licence with immediate effect in accordance with Section 61(1)(B) of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976, in order to promote public safety due to the conduct of the Licence Holder as set out in the Licensing and Enforcement Officer’s report and as set out above.
Considerations:
In reaching its decision, the Sub Committee took into consideration the following factors:-
(i) The report and evidence of the Licensing and Enforcement Officer, including the audio recording of the complaint and the CCTV footage from the vehicle;
(ii) The character references provided in support of the Licence Holder;
(iii) The provisions of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976;
(iv) The Human Rights Act 1998 and of The First Protocol, Article 1;
(v) The Council’s Policy and Guidelines.
The decision letter would be posted to the Licence Holder within 5 days. There was a right of appeal against the Sub Committee’s decision to the Magistrates Court, exercisable within 21 days of receipt of the notification.
The Sub Committee was adjourned at 11:45 hours for the Licence Holder for Item 6 to leave and the Licence Holder for Item 7 to attend the hearing.
The Sub Committee was reconvened at 11:54 hours.